Are plant spirits real or are they all in my mind when I eat psychedelic plants?

Here's a conversation that I've had with various people. I'm posting this most recent one so that I don't have to have it again over and over:

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Being that you have experience with aya and other plant psychedelics, do you believe that these plants have spirits? Or do you believe that any experience with external entities (benevolent or malevoalnt), is really just projections from your own psyche? I understand that Buddhism is not a homogeneous belief system, but what is the Buddhist view of an external reality where spirits and entities dwell, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:34 PM

Being that you have experience with aya and other plant psychedelics, do you believe that these plants have spirits? Or do you believe that any experience with external entities (benevolent or malevolent), is really just projections from your own psyche? I understand that Buddhism is not a homogeneous belief system, but what is the Buddhist view of an external reality where spirits and entities dwell

Message by You: As Ajahn Mun said when asked about this, "Everything is real within its own realm.", Friday, March 8 2019, 10:35 PM

As Ajahn Mun said when asked about this, "Everything is real within its own realm."

Message by You: within its own context, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:35 PM

within its own context

Message by You: outside of its context nothing is real, like in a dream, the dream characters are real, but outside the dream they are not, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:35 PM

outside of its context nothing is real, like in a dream, the dream characters are real, but outside the dream they are not

Message by You: "your" psyche is a concept which is just as abstract as "things outside your pscyhe" -- your psyche after all being nothing but the things that make it up, all of which are originally from "outside" of it, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:36 PM

"your" psyche is a concept which is just as abstract as "things outside your pscyhe" -- your psyche after all being nothing but the things that make it up, all of which are originally from "outside" of it

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: I'm reading the psychedelic experience: a manual based on the Tibetan book of the dead, and it seems to suggest that everything in the psychedelic state is the minds internal creation. But I looked around and it seems that some Buddhist schools of thought believe in deities and spirits, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:38 PM

I'm reading the psychedelic experience: a manual based on the Tibetan book of the dead, and it seems to suggest that everything in the psychedelic state is the minds internal creation. But I looked around and it seems that some Buddhist schools of thought believe in deities and spirits

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: So I'm a little confused, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:38 PM

So I'm a little confused

Message by You: am i real or am i in your psyche?, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:38 PM

am i real or am i in your psyche?

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: You are real but only because I have the perceptual apparatus to engage with you, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:40 PM

You are real but only because I have the perceptual apparatus to engage with you

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: I suppose, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:40 PM

I suppose

Message by You: The idea that I am real is not one that I hold. It is one that you hold. What I understand is that I am just the convergence point between various sense streams (which was what buddha taught)., Friday, March 8 2019, 10:41 PM

The idea that I am real is not one that I hold. It is one that you hold. What I understand is that I am just the convergence point between various sense streams (which was what buddha taught).

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: I guess what I'm trying to get at is: is there any real way for me to determine the truth value of the statament "plants have spirits. When we ingest these plants, the spirits communicate with us", Friday, March 8 2019, 10:41 PM

I guess what I'm trying to get at is: is there any real way for me to determine the truth value of the statement "plants have spirits. When we ingest these plants, the spirits communicate with us"

Message by You: I don't think that can be determined as true or false outside of the context of the reality of any being, since reality is always indistinguishable from a dream state... however, perhaps it is more worthwhile to try to use that statement for what it is trying to convey that may be useful. In other words, each plant seems to have a particular spirit that is unique to itself. If you want to talk to Mother Ayahuasca, don't eat San Pedro. Understand?, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:43 PM

I don't think that can be determined as true or false outside of the context of the reality of any being, since reality is always indistinguishable from a dream state... however, perhaps it is more worthwhile to try to use that statement for what it is trying to convey that may be useful. In other words, each plant seems to have a particular spirit that is unique to itself. If you want to talk to Mother Ayahuasca, don't eat San Pedro. Understand?

Message by You: Another way of looking at it is, You Are What You Eat. That is literally true. Your mind is made up of your brain functioning from what science says, and that brain is made up of atoms which are mostly from the food you eat, and the psychedelic plants as well. When you ingest a psychedelic plant, your experience changes as you merge with the "spirit" (configuration of atoms perhaps you might say) of that plant., Friday, March 8 2019, 10:45 PM

Another way of looking at it is, You Are What You Eat. That is literally true. Your mind is made up of your brain functioning from what science says, and that brain is made up of atoms which are mostly from the food you eat, and the psychedelic plants as well. When you ingest a psychedelic plant, your experience changes as you merge with the "spirit" (configuration of atoms perhaps you might say) of that plant.

Message by You: If the configuration of atoms in your brain can be called 'You" or "your spirit," then we may as well call the configuration of atoms in a psychedelic plant as the spirit of that plant., Friday, March 8 2019, 10:47 PM

If the configuration of atoms in your brain can be called 'You" or "your spirit," then we may as well call the configuration of atoms in a psychedelic plant as the spirit of that plant.

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: I understand your point about the broader question of what constitutes reality in the first place, and that arguably reality only exists because we have the perceptual apparatus to conceive it. But I am questioning the reality of the plant spirits from within the contextual reality that we already exist in. When we take these plants, are we communing with a world that already exists but that we are now able to tap into like an antenna, or is it merely something that the mind is producing based on its nuerochemistry?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:32 PM

I understand your point about the broader question of what constitutes reality in the first place, and that arguably reality only exists because we have the perceptual apparatus to conceive it. But I am questioning the reality of the plant spirits from within the contextual reality that we already exist in. When we take these plants, are we communing with a world that already exists but that we are now able to tap into like an antenna, or is it merely something that the mind is producing based on its nuerochemistry?

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: This is a little confusing me to. Suppose you write a 100 digit number on your wall right now. I don't know what this number is and I have no way of knowing. Then i take ayahuasca, and ask it's 'spirit' what that number is and write it down. Then when the experience is over, I tell you what that number is, and you verify it to be the same number that I told you. And we repeat this experiment a hundred times, and I always get the numbers right. What would this mean?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:36 PM

This is a little confusing me to. Suppose you write a 100 digit number on your wall right now. I don't know what this number is and I have no way of knowing. Then i take ayahuasca, and ask it's 'spirit' what that number is and write it down. Then when the experience is over, I tell you what that number is, and you verify it to be the same number that I told you. And we repeat this experiment a hundred times, and I always get the numbers right. What would this mean?

Message by You: It would indicate that ayahuasca is helping you to see further than normal, perhaps., Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:37 PM

It would indicate that ayahuasca is helping you to see further than normal, perhaps.

Message by You: You are still talking about your mind as if it is separate from the rest of the universe. There are things in your mind but those are not as real as the conventional reality. That is how you see things. In the ultimate reality this is not true, your mind is not something apart from the universe nor is it all one thing. Interdependent processes automatically perfect without identity. ... now imagine if the alien you talk to on ayahuasca came down to your house and met your family. Would it then be only in your head? How do you know? Maybe you are still hallucinating all that? Or maybe it's a mass-hypnosis thing., Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:39 PM

You are still talking about your mind as if it is separate from the rest of the universe. There are things in your mind but those are not as real as the conventional reality. That is how you see things. In the ultimate reality this is not true, your mind is not something apart from the universe nor is it all one thing. Interdependent processes automatically perfect without identity. ... now imagine if the alien you talk to on ayahuasca came down to your house and met your family. Would it then be only in your head? How do you know? Maybe you are still hallucinating all that? Or maybe it's a mass-hypnosis thing.

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Would it mean that ayahuasca is a unique and conscious entity, like I am, and so its spirit is 'real'?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:40 PM

Would it mean that ayahuasca is a unique and conscious entity, like I am, and so its spirit is 'real'?

Message by You: no, how would it mean that?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:40 PM

no, how would it mean that?

Message by You: look for the simplest answer first, don't complicate stuff, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:40 PM

look for the simplest answer first, don't complicate stuff

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Also sorry if I'm not making any sense, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:41 PM

Also sorry if I'm not making any sense

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Ok let me think about what you just said, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:41 PM

Ok let me think about what you just said

Message by You: It's impossible to truly know anything because it is all based on your perception of things. We can just say things like well, based on this and this assumption, I'm certain of this answer., Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:43 PM

It's impossible to truly know anything because it is all based on your perception of things. We can just say things like well, based on this and this assumption, I'm certain of this answer.

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Ok when you speak about what is real, do you make the distinction between the objective and the subjective?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 6:33 PM

Ok when you speak about what is real, do you make the distinction between the objective and the subjective?

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Also can't we say that certain events happen regardless of our perceptual apparatus? If a bulb exploded in my room, is it not objectively true that this event happened, regardless of whether or not someone was there to perceive It?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 6:37 PM

Also can't we say that certain events happen regardless of our perceptual apparatus? If a bulb exploded in my room, is it not objectively true that this event happened, regardless of whether or not someone was there to perceive It?

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Would numbers not be real if nobody had discovered them?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 6:38 PM

Would numbers not be real if nobody had discovered them?

Message by You: Objective reality cannot be described accurately, which is why when it is known, it is known as "suchness"... you are not grasping the difference between reality (sounds, sights, thoughts) vs concepts of reality. "Light bulb" is a concept about an aspect of reality. Numbers are a way of conceptualizing reality also. Nothing actually exists objectively as any specific thing., Monday, March 11 2019, 9:44 AM

Objective reality cannot be described accurately, which is why when it is known, it is known as "suchness"... you are not grasping the difference between reality (sounds, sights, thoughts) vs concepts of reality. "Light bulb" is a concept about an aspect of reality. Numbers are a way of conceptualizing reality also. Nothing actually exists objectively as any specific thing.

"The Joker" poem -- can you see what's wrong?

Read this, and then if you can't figure out what's wrong with it, you can scroll down...

THE JOKER

At the centre
of the spinning circle
sits the joker
with a mirror
in his hand,
reflecting all to everyone
to help them understand.

His face is fierce, yet gentle,
his eyes, they pierce you through,
you cannot escape his gaze
no matter where you go,
no matter what you do.

His smile is warm, he draws you in,
he is so calm, why are you
so confused by him?

Your thoughts are like a raging storm
between the whirling sky and sea,
nothing seems certain any more,
nothing’s how it used to be.

Once things were clear in black and white,
you thought you knew the wrong from right,
you drew the line, and cut it fine,
between the day and night;
but now your world is crumbling,
there’s nowhere you can call your own,
nothing’s solid anymore,
not even cities made of stone,
not even your own body,
not even flesh and blood,
not even skin and bone.

The sun and moon are falling on your head,
the stars are tumbling down,
flowers sing like angels,
in the winter town.

The dead are living, the living dead,
fire turns to water, water burns instead,
silence is so full of sound, time stands still,
you hear the earth turn round.
Your life flashes before you,
is that thunder, or the beating of your heart,
you don’t know if this is the end,
or something new about to start.
You don’t know if you’re dreaming
or if you are awake,
and as you go on spinning
you see the joker’s mirror
reflecting every move you make.

You show him good,
and he will show you evil;
you show him truth,
and he will show you lies;
you show him life,
and he will show you
how all that’s living dies.

You show him happiness,
and he will show you sorrow,
you show him yesterday,
and he will show you tomorrow;
you show him poverty,
and he will show you wealth;
you show him sickness
and he will show you health.

You fall as if forever, falling
spinning round and round,
tumbling into empty space,
without up or down
and thus you will go on falling
until you understand
how opposites arise mutually,
then you and the joker
will dance, hand in hand.

Then you will know the truth:
that all is of one taste;
then you and the joker
will have the same face.

- Unknown

...

figured out the problem?

......

no?

.......

This poem comes from the perspective of Advaita philosophy, where there is a divine source to all of duality, and that source is itself Awareness (or we can call it your "True Face" a la Zen). You'll find a lot of that talk in Zen and other Mahayana sects of Buddhism, because the original teaching of Anatta was not easy to understand, and so later Buddhist schools mostly lost it.

In Theravada, the closest to original teachings we have from Buddha, there is no divine source, no original face, no true "you." There is no awareness behind appearances. Nor is there unity to everything. Just the opposite. If you read the Bahiya sutta, Buddha clearly explains that Nibbana, the nature of reality, is: When in the seen, there is only  the seen. In the heard, only the heard. In the cognized, only the cognized. There is no awareness that binds it all up into one experience. Nibbana is also known as "unbinding."

However, tho I find the Bahiya sutta to be abundantly clear, I've noticed it can seem to mean whatever people want it to mean. So, does it mean nothing? I'd argue that it has a real, specific meaning just like any worthwhile teaching, but one has to be open to hearing it or else they will miss it entirely.

What if everything is already perfect?

Just thought I should post this as it is something I send out to everyone in the mail along with either Buddha's pithy Bahiya sutta, or "The Joy Hidden in Sorrow: Two talks on death and dying," by Ayyā Medhānandī.

What If Everything

Is “Already” Perfect?

ONLY READ IF YOU ARE READY FOR TRUTH

Life seems pretty miserable, doesn't it? You have a few birthdays, you try to satisfy desires as they arise, and before you know it, your health is declining, and then you die. If you are religious, at least you hope to go to heaven. But what are the chances you chose the one true religion? Each one claims to be the only true one, and they all demand blind faith.

But the one thing that almost nobody seems to consider is that they may simply be seeing reality incorrectly. In reality, everything functions perfectly according to natural laws. This perfection can only know itself when it’s realized that you and I do not exist.

Proof #1: Everything happens due to conditions. Think about that. Imagine what it would mean for that to be falsified. Could something happen without any supporting conditions? No, of course not. This is common sense.

The very strange thing is, this common sense is ignored so that we can feel as if we are independent agents able to make choices which are not dependent upon conditions (aka “Free Will”). Obviously, choices are made. But how? What causes one choice vs another choice? If it were random, then nothing would make any sense at all. But even if it were random, that still wouldn't help us feel as if our choices are truly our own.

We don't know our next thoughts until we think them. We don't decide which desires will surge up. And even if we did choose desires and thoughts, there would be conditions leading to those choices. Even a creator God, choosing to create the universe, is subject to the same lack of free will as any other being. Free will itself is a logical impossibility.

For some strange reason, when confronted with this realization, people often assume that their choices are meaningless, when in fact the opposite is the case. Precisely because each choice affects future conditions & future choices, each choice is important in shaping the future, tho it happens automatically. There is no “self” that exists outside of reality (aka the web of conditions) to influence reality. The most powerful choice to make is the choice to meditate on and contemplate this truth of Dependent Origination, for it leads to liberation from the dream of identity.

The next problem that people run into is imagining that they must exist as simply the awareness of what is going on, since they are now convinced that everything is happening automatically. That's a frightening idea, that one is trapped as some type of powerless observer. But thankfully, it is just another illusion.

Proof #2: Let's look at direct experience: sensations, emotions, and cognitive experiences like thoughts and other states of mind. Looking closely at these aspects of direct experience, is there any witness (self) to be found in any of it? Or is the sense of witnessing simply a conceptual overlay that integrates the various streams of perception? When seeing, is there truly someone experienced to be seeing, or is there only the seen? When a thought appears, "I am seeing," is it just a thought that links thoughts, or is it pointing to some real “self” somewhere that is seeing?

Reality is witnessless/backgroundless, disjoint, center-less, infinitely interpenetrating self-known timeless processes/suchnesses; it is not unified nor is it subject & object. It is maddening to ignore the truth!

With practice at not hiding from the logical truth, many "people" even today have managed (to varying degrees) to get over the delusion that the conditioned sense of self points to a truly existing self, and thus have overcome stress & the illusion of birth and death caused by unification (allowing for identification) of disjoint experiences.

Remember: You are not the center of the universe. There is no center, nor background, except an imagined one.

∞ ❤ ∞ www.u-dont-exist.com ∞ ❤ ∞

What If Everything

Is “Already” Perfect?

ONLY READ IF YOU ARE READY FOR TRUTH

Life seems pretty miserable, doesn't it? You have a few birthdays, you try to satisfy desires as they arise, and before you know it, your health is declining, and then you die. If you are religious, at least you hope to go to heaven. But what are the chances you chose the one true religion? Each one claims to be the only true one, and they all demand blind faith.

But the one thing that almost nobody seems to consider is that they may simply be seeing reality incorrectly. In reality, everything functions perfectly according to natural laws. This perfection can only know itself when it’s realized that you and I do not exist.

Proof #1: Everything happens due to conditions. Think about that. Imagine what it would mean for that to be falsified. Could something happen without any supporting conditions? No, of course not. This is common sense.

The very strange thing is, this common sense is ignored so that we can feel as if we are independent agents able to make choices which are not dependent upon conditions (aka “Free Will”). Obviously, choices are made. But how? What causes one choice vs another choice? If it were random, then nothing would make any sense at all. But even if it were random, that still wouldn't help us feel as if our choices are truly our own.

We don't know our next thoughts until we think them. We don't decide which desires will surge up. And even if we did choose desires and thoughts, there would be conditions leading to those choices. Even a creator God, choosing to create the universe, is subject to the same lack of free will as any other being. Free will itself is a logical impossibility.

For some strange reason, when confronted with this realization, people often assume that their choices are meaningless, when in fact the opposite is the case. Precisely because each choice affects future conditions & future choices, each choice is important in shaping the future, tho it happens automatically. There is no “self” that exists outside of reality (aka the web of conditions) to influence reality. The most powerful choice to make is the choice to meditate on and contemplate this truth of Dependent Origination, for it leads to liberation from the dream of identity.

The next problem that people run into is imagining that they must exist as simply the awareness of what is going on, since they are now convinced that everything is happening automatically. That's a frightening idea, that one is trapped as some type of powerless observer. But thankfully, it is just another illusion.

Proof #2: Let's look at direct experience: sensations, emotions, and cognitive experiences like thoughts and other states of mind. Looking closely at these aspects of direct experience, is there any witness (self) to be found in any of it? Or is the sense of witnessing simply a conceptual overlay that integrates the various streams of perception? When seeing, is there truly someone experienced to be seeing, or is there only the seen? When a thought appears, "I am seeing," is it just a thought that links thoughts, or is it pointing to some real “self” somewhere that is seeing?

Reality is witnessless/backgroundless, disjoint, center-less, infinitely interpenetrating self-known timeless processes/suchnesses; it is not unified nor is it subject & object. It is maddening to ignore the truth!

With practice at not hiding from the logical truth, many "people" even today have managed (to varying degrees) to get over the delusion that the conditioned sense of self points to a truly existing self, and thus have overcome stress & the illusion of birth and death caused by unification (allowing for identification) of disjoint experiences.

Remember: You are not the center of the universe. There is no center, nor background, except an imagined one.

∞ ❤ ∞ www.u-dont-exist.com ∞ ❤ ∞

Short summary of "my" journey starting with Divine Source to No Self

S: "I do not know if what you have encountered was the same thing as i did, however i did encounter what seemed to be the source of all life that is a part of all of us & everything we know & was able to return to a very familiar, comforting place that felt as if i had been there many times maybe before birth & after many pervious lifetimes. "

Yes, I'd say I think I did encounter the same thing you did as you describe it. That happened the first (and every) time I did ayahuasca. It also included the ability to see everything in the universe from all times all at once, a sense of knowing everything & nothing in particular, like a meta-knowing, and infinite love. 

But every time I went there, I immediately knew I needed to come back, because in some way, my work was not done here. I wasn't sure what that meant, but I figured it meant at least that I needed to help others get to this same place. The problem was that my problems in life did not magically disappear (namely, the feeling of disconnection, loneliness, neediness, desires for x y z), and so I didn't see how I could promote to people what I had seen while I was still suffering just like everyone else at this level (well, almost like everyone else, because now at least I knew that there was a divine reality behind it all, so in that sense my earthly suffering was less important, but then I had the new suffering of trying to get the divine reality to return to me, preferably without needing ayahuasca). 

I decided that meditation must be the method for attaining the divine reality permanently, so I looked for a good book on meditation. Miraculously, someone suggested to me a really good book which I still believe is one of the best: Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond, by Ajahn Brahm. The only problem was that the Buddhist nibbana (nirvana) didn't sound quite like what the ayahuasca divine reality was... it was more about no self, which I didn't quite understand, because my only experience of no self was in the stage just prior to the divine reality stage... it wasn't a lovely experience, just kind of ok/no judgement. So I struggled for quite a while with this concept of No Self and I felt that I had the ability even to choose whether I wanted to have a self or not. Soh Wei Yu helped me understand that it isn't about losing the self... it is about realizing that there never was a self to begin with. That self is a logical impossibility. 

Reading the dialogs over at www.LiberationUnleashed.com also helped me understand this. (I highly recommend doing the dialog there if you haven't yet.)

There are many arguments but one simple one is the notion of free will. In order for identity to make sense, there must be free will. If it is all automatic, then there is no reason that any one part of reality should be considered "me, mine." From reading Sam Harris, I realized that, indeed, no decision can ever be made except based upon conditions, logically. It is not sensical for somebody to be outside of reality and thus able to act upon reality without any conditions/reasons for doing so. 

Focusing on this insight, and the physical laws that all atoms in the known universe adhere to, including those in "my" body, I was able to meditate into the state of No Mind/No Self that I had never before imagined was possible. In this state, everything was self-aware, but there was no awareness awaring it all, no background observing it, no center of reference, no me, no mine... and all was happening perfectly automatically, automatically perfectly. This was somewhat similar to the initial no self experience that I had prior to the divine reality stage in every ayahuasca trip, but the difference was that there was no longer the underlying desire for something "more" than the automatic perfection, and as a result, it was finally seen as the perfection that it is, rather than as a stage to get past.

To the dualistic, identifying mind, it sounds like a prison--the idea that there is no free will. But from the perspective of No Self, it is the ultimate freedom. And unlike the ayahuasca divine source experience, it did not require me to give up an earthly identity or stop helping people in this earth plane, because No Self is not just a higher dimension to attain that makes no sense here. It is what is happening right now, always has been, and is the only thing that makes logical sense. So instead of splitting the mind further between logic and experience, instead of expanding identity to encompass the universe, it collapses the split and the identity all at once. 

The task is simply to remain mindful at all times that everything is actually happening by itself, without anyone here doing anything, while emanating great compassion for those who are still asleep in the illogical dream of identity. When one practices this enough, it is felt to be more and more automatic and profound. Meditation on the breath as instructed by Ajahn Brahm is also helpful, as it expands the capacity for mindfulness. 

An alternative to thinking in terms of automaticity is simply paying attention to the sense streams. As explained in the Bahiya sutta, simply notice that in seeing, there is nobody seeing, just the seen. In cognizing, there is only the cognized, nobody there cognizing, etc.