Are plant spirits real or are they all in my mind when I eat psychedelic plants?

Here's a conversation that I've had with various people. I'm posting this most recent one so that I don't have to have it again over and over:

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Being that you have experience with aya and other plant psychedelics, do you believe that these plants have spirits? Or do you believe that any experience with external entities (benevolent or malevoalnt), is really just projections from your own psyche? I understand that Buddhism is not a homogeneous belief system, but what is the Buddhist view of an external reality where spirits and entities dwell, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:34 PM

Being that you have experience with aya and other plant psychedelics, do you believe that these plants have spirits? Or do you believe that any experience with external entities (benevolent or malevolent), is really just projections from your own psyche? I understand that Buddhism is not a homogeneous belief system, but what is the Buddhist view of an external reality where spirits and entities dwell

Message by You: As Ajahn Mun said when asked about this, "Everything is real within its own realm.", Friday, March 8 2019, 10:35 PM

As Ajahn Mun said when asked about this, "Everything is real within its own realm."

Message by You: within its own context, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:35 PM

within its own context

Message by You: outside of its context nothing is real, like in a dream, the dream characters are real, but outside the dream they are not, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:35 PM

outside of its context nothing is real, like in a dream, the dream characters are real, but outside the dream they are not

Message by You: "your" psyche is a concept which is just as abstract as "things outside your pscyhe" -- your psyche after all being nothing but the things that make it up, all of which are originally from "outside" of it, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:36 PM

"your" psyche is a concept which is just as abstract as "things outside your pscyhe" -- your psyche after all being nothing but the things that make it up, all of which are originally from "outside" of it

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: I'm reading the psychedelic experience: a manual based on the Tibetan book of the dead, and it seems to suggest that everything in the psychedelic state is the minds internal creation. But I looked around and it seems that some Buddhist schools of thought believe in deities and spirits, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:38 PM

I'm reading the psychedelic experience: a manual based on the Tibetan book of the dead, and it seems to suggest that everything in the psychedelic state is the minds internal creation. But I looked around and it seems that some Buddhist schools of thought believe in deities and spirits

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: So I'm a little confused, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:38 PM

So I'm a little confused

Message by You: am i real or am i in your psyche?, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:38 PM

am i real or am i in your psyche?

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: You are real but only because I have the perceptual apparatus to engage with you, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:40 PM

You are real but only because I have the perceptual apparatus to engage with you

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: I suppose, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:40 PM

I suppose

Message by You: The idea that I am real is not one that I hold. It is one that you hold. What I understand is that I am just the convergence point between various sense streams (which was what buddha taught)., Friday, March 8 2019, 10:41 PM

The idea that I am real is not one that I hold. It is one that you hold. What I understand is that I am just the convergence point between various sense streams (which was what buddha taught).

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: I guess what I'm trying to get at is: is there any real way for me to determine the truth value of the statament "plants have spirits. When we ingest these plants, the spirits communicate with us", Friday, March 8 2019, 10:41 PM

I guess what I'm trying to get at is: is there any real way for me to determine the truth value of the statement "plants have spirits. When we ingest these plants, the spirits communicate with us"

Message by You: I don't think that can be determined as true or false outside of the context of the reality of any being, since reality is always indistinguishable from a dream state... however, perhaps it is more worthwhile to try to use that statement for what it is trying to convey that may be useful. In other words, each plant seems to have a particular spirit that is unique to itself. If you want to talk to Mother Ayahuasca, don't eat San Pedro. Understand?, Friday, March 8 2019, 10:43 PM

I don't think that can be determined as true or false outside of the context of the reality of any being, since reality is always indistinguishable from a dream state... however, perhaps it is more worthwhile to try to use that statement for what it is trying to convey that may be useful. In other words, each plant seems to have a particular spirit that is unique to itself. If you want to talk to Mother Ayahuasca, don't eat San Pedro. Understand?

Message by You: Another way of looking at it is, You Are What You Eat. That is literally true. Your mind is made up of your brain functioning from what science says, and that brain is made up of atoms which are mostly from the food you eat, and the psychedelic plants as well. When you ingest a psychedelic plant, your experience changes as you merge with the "spirit" (configuration of atoms perhaps you might say) of that plant., Friday, March 8 2019, 10:45 PM

Another way of looking at it is, You Are What You Eat. That is literally true. Your mind is made up of your brain functioning from what science says, and that brain is made up of atoms which are mostly from the food you eat, and the psychedelic plants as well. When you ingest a psychedelic plant, your experience changes as you merge with the "spirit" (configuration of atoms perhaps you might say) of that plant.

Message by You: If the configuration of atoms in your brain can be called 'You" or "your spirit," then we may as well call the configuration of atoms in a psychedelic plant as the spirit of that plant., Friday, March 8 2019, 10:47 PM

If the configuration of atoms in your brain can be called 'You" or "your spirit," then we may as well call the configuration of atoms in a psychedelic plant as the spirit of that plant.

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: I understand your point about the broader question of what constitutes reality in the first place, and that arguably reality only exists because we have the perceptual apparatus to conceive it. But I am questioning the reality of the plant spirits from within the contextual reality that we already exist in. When we take these plants, are we communing with a world that already exists but that we are now able to tap into like an antenna, or is it merely something that the mind is producing based on its nuerochemistry?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:32 PM

I understand your point about the broader question of what constitutes reality in the first place, and that arguably reality only exists because we have the perceptual apparatus to conceive it. But I am questioning the reality of the plant spirits from within the contextual reality that we already exist in. When we take these plants, are we communing with a world that already exists but that we are now able to tap into like an antenna, or is it merely something that the mind is producing based on its nuerochemistry?

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: This is a little confusing me to. Suppose you write a 100 digit number on your wall right now. I don't know what this number is and I have no way of knowing. Then i take ayahuasca, and ask it's 'spirit' what that number is and write it down. Then when the experience is over, I tell you what that number is, and you verify it to be the same number that I told you. And we repeat this experiment a hundred times, and I always get the numbers right. What would this mean?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:36 PM

This is a little confusing me to. Suppose you write a 100 digit number on your wall right now. I don't know what this number is and I have no way of knowing. Then i take ayahuasca, and ask it's 'spirit' what that number is and write it down. Then when the experience is over, I tell you what that number is, and you verify it to be the same number that I told you. And we repeat this experiment a hundred times, and I always get the numbers right. What would this mean?

Message by You: It would indicate that ayahuasca is helping you to see further than normal, perhaps., Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:37 PM

It would indicate that ayahuasca is helping you to see further than normal, perhaps.

Message by You: You are still talking about your mind as if it is separate from the rest of the universe. There are things in your mind but those are not as real as the conventional reality. That is how you see things. In the ultimate reality this is not true, your mind is not something apart from the universe nor is it all one thing. Interdependent processes automatically perfect without identity. ... now imagine if the alien you talk to on ayahuasca came down to your house and met your family. Would it then be only in your head? How do you know? Maybe you are still hallucinating all that? Or maybe it's a mass-hypnosis thing., Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:39 PM

You are still talking about your mind as if it is separate from the rest of the universe. There are things in your mind but those are not as real as the conventional reality. That is how you see things. In the ultimate reality this is not true, your mind is not something apart from the universe nor is it all one thing. Interdependent processes automatically perfect without identity. ... now imagine if the alien you talk to on ayahuasca came down to your house and met your family. Would it then be only in your head? How do you know? Maybe you are still hallucinating all that? Or maybe it's a mass-hypnosis thing.

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Would it mean that ayahuasca is a unique and conscious entity, like I am, and so its spirit is 'real'?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:40 PM

Would it mean that ayahuasca is a unique and conscious entity, like I am, and so its spirit is 'real'?

Message by You: no, how would it mean that?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:40 PM

no, how would it mean that?

Message by You: look for the simplest answer first, don't complicate stuff, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:40 PM

look for the simplest answer first, don't complicate stuff

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Also sorry if I'm not making any sense, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:41 PM

Also sorry if I'm not making any sense

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Ok let me think about what you just said, Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:41 PM

Ok let me think about what you just said

Message by You: It's impossible to truly know anything because it is all based on your perception of things. We can just say things like well, based on this and this assumption, I'm certain of this answer., Saturday, March 9 2019, 4:43 PM

It's impossible to truly know anything because it is all based on your perception of things. We can just say things like well, based on this and this assumption, I'm certain of this answer.

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Ok when you speak about what is real, do you make the distinction between the objective and the subjective?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 6:33 PM

Ok when you speak about what is real, do you make the distinction between the objective and the subjective?

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Also can't we say that certain events happen regardless of our perceptual apparatus? If a bulb exploded in my room, is it not objectively true that this event happened, regardless of whether or not someone was there to perceive It?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 6:37 PM

Also can't we say that certain events happen regardless of our perceptual apparatus? If a bulb exploded in my room, is it not objectively true that this event happened, regardless of whether or not someone was there to perceive It?

U

Message by Usman Asad In Canada: Would numbers not be real if nobody had discovered them?, Saturday, March 9 2019, 6:38 PM

Would numbers not be real if nobody had discovered them?

Message by You: Objective reality cannot be described accurately, which is why when it is known, it is known as "suchness"... you are not grasping the difference between reality (sounds, sights, thoughts) vs concepts of reality. "Light bulb" is a concept about an aspect of reality. Numbers are a way of conceptualizing reality also. Nothing actually exists objectively as any specific thing., Monday, March 11 2019, 9:44 AM

Objective reality cannot be described accurately, which is why when it is known, it is known as "suchness"... you are not grasping the difference between reality (sounds, sights, thoughts) vs concepts of reality. "Light bulb" is a concept about an aspect of reality. Numbers are a way of conceptualizing reality also. Nothing actually exists objectively as any specific thing.