What's wrong with just trying to "live the dream"? Forget liberation...

J: From the perspective of self, all is not perfect. All is really quite shitty but most people don't spend the time to think about it.

 

D: Not perfect, true, all shitty is perspective. All is clearly not any one thing except illusion, no?

One person says all is shitty, one says eighty percent shitty…etc… once says all is good…

one says all is mustard…

J: No, it is *logically* truly shitty from the perspective of self. Why? Because everything the self thinks is pleasing to it vanishes. The self never gets what it truly wants. The self never escapes death. The self can never hold on to any loved ones. In fact, even the self that thinks things are lovely is not the same self the next moment who thinks they suck, so what kind of insanity is it to say that the first self, the one who spoke  a minute ago, is correct that things are really great?

If we cannot see how truly shitty it is to be a self, then we have no desire nor hope for liberation. 

But I am not going to try to convince you to see it this way any longer. It's up to you (well, ultimately it isn't even up to you, it's up to conditions that nobody has any control over--again, that's why this self stuff is so shitty, we have no control over anything but we are so insane that we think we do). 

  

 J: Like I said, it's like a dream. In a dream, there are dream characters. Do they exist? Will they exist in the next dream?

 

D: Yes.

J: Hmm... that's pretty rare for me to have dream characters cross over from one dream to another and feel that they are the same people in each dream. Even the one I associate myself with is totally different from one dream to the next and generally has no recall of the past dream. 

 

J: The illusion goes on forever until it is seen thru. You will die when the body dies, and then someone else will be born in another realm, having no memory whatsoever of your life, but identifying due to you not quitting your habit of identification. Thus your selfishness now leads to the suffering of the "next" person who you think is you, but who really isn't you. Remember the analogy of the candle lighting another candle. The candle is the identity (you). You are helping to light up another suffering identity by not blowing out your own flame of identification.

 

D: Someone else? Again, perspective, someone else, you could say that sure. Still you, you could say that too. People have “past life” experiences… or, at least they say they do.

J: If you said that someone in a future or past life is "you" then you would have to define what you mean by that, because it makes no logical sense as I see it. What makes "you" "you"? Is it not the memories that you have and the feeling that these memories define you? Otherwise, how are you any different from anyone else? Indeed, even in this life, our sense of self is always shifting, so it is a stretch to say that I am the same person I was when I was a baby--there really isn't much at all the same about me. But to say I'm the same person I was when I was, say, a caterpillar, 3 million years ago, is really quite a stretch of the imagination, and I doubt the caterpillar (nor his friends & family) would agree with me. 

And I myself have past life memories. But I don't feel at all like those past lives are *me*. They are not this life. I am not a woman in love with a man from Mexico, heart broken that he lied to me about not being married already to a Mexican woman and maybe just using me to get a green card. I am not a dinosaur from the Cretaceous period. These are simply memories that somehow came across--anyone could have these memories. 

In fact, if I truly did feel that these past lives were me, then I might be in quite a mess, because I would probably still want to find some of these loved ones that I had and let them know that I'm ok and so forth. One guy did some 5-meo-dmt and came back with such vivid past life memories of "his" old family that he left his current family and tried to reconnect with "his" old one. It ruined his life to identify with "his" past life. 

 

D: I'm perfectly happy with illusion.

 

J: Sorry to hear that. Looks like LU hasn't helped you at all then, and neither have I.

 

D: Not perfectly happy. There are two of me, many in fact. One part says this, one part says that. They’re just words. Some aspects of life I feel happy with in some moments I think and as far as I can tell.

J: Ok, so now you see that the you who said you were perfectly happy with illusion is not even the you that you are now. So how on earth could you identify with a past life when you can't even identify with yourself from last night? 

So let's say there's one of you that is happy, and the others of you are not as happy. Which ones of you are seeing things more clearly? I'd say, the ones of you which see that they are only versions of you which come and go, are seeing things more clearly. Do you notice that those ones of you who know they are just versions who come and go are also the less happy versions of you, who are more interested in liberation from suffering?

 

D: I want to learn more about this letting go you speak of and don’t understand it yet. Never seeing the sun or the ocean, petting a cat, hugging someone... I'm not going to lie and say that sounds good to me because it doesn't but I am interested in understanding non-duality of that's what it can be called.

J: When I speak of letting go, I'm talking about letting go of delusion. It is delusion for you to see the sun, because the universe does not exist for you to see it. The universe is not revolving around you, even though it feels like that when you are identified as a self. You are not doing anything and you never have. You are a concept created in this brain to associate disparate perceptions with one unified subject.

In reality, the sun experiences itself, the petting experiences itself, every appearance is self-seen and already perfect in reality, none of it is yours, nor could it logically be so. Obviously it is hard to imagine what I'm talking about, so instead of imagining it, just look hard at this sense of *owning* experience. Look hard enough to see that it is a delusion and don't forget that. Wish only for an end to the delusion of owning experience.  

 

J: [Any view of ultimate reality, whether true or not, will] have the same results for someone who doesn't actually care, like you (or the you that just wrote that message, which kind of seems like a different you than normal). 

 

 

D: I forgot what I don’t care about but I’m pretty sure I care whatever it was.

J: So, you forgot what you don't care about, but you are pretty sure you still care about whatever it was. Hmm... why does that sound like a cop out to me? I was saying that you (the you who was writing before) don't care about liberation, since as "you" said, the illusion is (was) quite lovely. 

J: For someone who wants to stop birth and death, it is important to know the difference between God/divine intelligent planning/creator/dreamer and automatic perfection with nobody in it.

 

D: Would you explain the difference?

J: A creator God is an extension of the delusion of self-view. Because you see yourself as existing, then if you think about the death of yourself, you imagine that there must be some higher self which doesn't die. Because you see yourself as creating things with your will power, you imagine there must be a higher self that is creating things with its will power. 

Dependent origination/automatic perfection with nobody in it, is the understanding that nobody is creating anything and that such a view is completely illogical, since everything happens due to conditions. The appearance of "self" happens due to conditions, and it does not mean there actually is any true entity called self. Just as the feeling of divinity does not mean that there is a true entity called God who creates the universe. 

Liberation from delusion requires seeing things as they are, not from the perspective of fantasy. 

 

J: And btw, I'm no stranger myself to falling back into the illusion. So don't take it personally that I'm trying to slap you out of it. I wish I had a friend to slap me out of it on a daily basis. I guess that's why folks become monks.

 

D: I won’t take it personally and appreciate your help and friendship. But monks don’t go out and talk to people, they just stay home and pray, don’t they?

J: Monks are all different. But all of them have left behind the life of "someone" who has worldly goals, and have donned the robes to remind themselves of their purpose here. 

Some monks wander through forests, wishing to not get too comfortable in any one place. Other monks stay in a monastery in order to help each other remember why they became monks.  Other monks stay in caves for long periods in order to focus on the sense of self without the distraction of relating to others. 

Not everyone has the capacity to become a monk (due to family obligations, etc.), but those of us who are not monks actually have a much harder time letting go of delusion, because we still act in the world just like everyone else. We still have to get the same things others have to get accomplished. We fall into delusion and forget about liberation with nothing nor anyone to remind us, except for when we experience more suffering.

I once read a quote from an elder monk regarding newly ordained monks. He said that 99% of the new monks end up quitting, because they are not yet done with their attachment to suffering. 

Isn't it selfish to seek my own liberation while others suffer?

No maker, no made, all unfolding perfectly... But how is that going to help me feel better about seeing someone suffer?

Why would you want to feel good about seeing someone suffer?? lol... you must mean, how is this going to help you to help others to be liberated from suffering?

If that's the question, the answer is that you won't be able to help others in most cases, because most people would not have any clue what you are talking about, and if anything they would be hurt by these ideas as their dreams would be shattered. On the other hand, sometimes you can help someone understand, but you think you can't. Like my neighbor--I forget his name now, but he is a real interesting guy from the little I know of him. He talks to me mostly about fruit that he likes. Strangely, he told me his favorite fruit was a pineapple one day, and I just happened to have just bought a pineapple for $1, even tho I don't like pineapple much. I gave it to him. Then a few months later (recently) he told me it was the best pineapple he'd ever had and he had to repay me with some fruit sometime. Somehow, he mentioned something about me being Jewish, and I said, "well, not really." And he said, "oh ok, but you believe in God at least." I said, "Well, not really." And he was flabbergasted. He said, "Well, you better, or else what will happen on judgement day?" I said, "There's nobody here to judge or be judged. If you pay attention to direct experience you'll see there's only the seen, the heard, the cognized, nobody in any of it." He said, "Wow, man, that's deep. I got to come over and talk with you sometime!"

Anyway, you may be able to help folks if you can first help yourself. Otherwise you'll be preaching a message that nobody will have reason to believe. I'd say just keep quiet until you have some true liberatory insight... until your intellectual understanding is confirmed by direct experience of the happiness of no self, no mind, automatic perfection. Even if that experience is only a brief one, it will shake the doubt right out of you. You'll be a true convert and nothing will ever be able to sway you from this understanding, no experience of God no matter how powerful. In fact, i recently (maybe 2 months ago) had my latest God experience while on ayahuasca (I wasn't expecting the effects to be so strong). It was foolish of me to have taken 1.5g of mimosa given that I was alone there to watch my sleeping baby. I was fighting it and God was right there, and I was bargaining with him/it. I said, look God, we both know that you and I don't exist and this whole dialog is an illusion, but can you please shut off this drug experience? I'll change my life if you want me to, just tell me what I have to do to shut this off. And God said, "Ok, then stop selling psychedelics to people and teach them the dharma instead. You already know that psychedelics are only confusing people if they don't understand reality to begin with." It was hard for me to accept because this business was providing most of my income, but I had no choice, especially because I knew this was truth being spoken. So I accepted, and shortly after, the experience was over. 

Now, back to this whole idea of helping yourself to be liberated. That sounds almost selfish to some people. But think of it like this... you actually are not really helping yourself, but rather, this body/mind being referred to as "yourself" is helping an infinite number of "your" future body/minds that would otherwise be enslaved to identity if not for "your" endeavors to untie the knot of ignorance in this very life. While it may be hard to see that this current body/mind is not you, it should be a bit easier to see that future body/minds are not you. Thus, liberating this body/mind is the opposite of selfishness, even if no "other" beings are helped in the process in this lifetime (altho in most cases, many "others" will be helped in the process). 

So instead of seeing liberation as selfish (which is an incredible trick the ego plays!) try to see clinging to identity as selfish. I once had an experience in which I was allowed to let go of identity in a dream, and I was *so* scared, but I had been training hard to remember that the whole point was to benefit all beings. So I said, "well, ok, I'll let go, since it is for the benefit of all beings." And upon saying that, I dissolved, painfully, into the universe. It was very painful, the letting go, that time. That was a dream (without drugs). Since then there's been a lot more bliss involved in these experiences, but usually still some initial trepidation. I always have to keep in mind how what I'm doing is for the benefit of all beings, to fight the illusion that it is selfish.